President Carter is correct, call it whatever makes you feel most comfortable.
However, more importantly explain to me why I should care?
If the Israeli government feels so strongly that killing hundreds and destroy the infrastructure of neighboring countries in response to a couple of kidnappings is cool - fine. But get someone else to flip the tab for all that , the US doesn't need any more enemies right now.
Only two times in 60+ years has Israel be attacked and successfully able to defend itself at that. Almost universally thereafter the in-extremis case is involved.
In the US, we don't hear about Israeli attacks on Palestinians - I'm sure they must occur - I'm also sure that I've never heard of one, we do here about frequent Israeli army attacks. "A disenfranchised,____, from a family with ____ previous hardships in the family attributed to ____ actions, attacks Israeli interests, killing ____, maiming ___ and causing ___ amout of damage."
Pretty much sums up the most news items for Arab-Israeli relations for the last 70 years.
It seems to me the US often behaves like a parent who doesn't know how to discipline their children, always making apologies for Israel's bad behavior. Never setting any standards or rules of behavior, never denied a thing, always cleaning up after their messes. For some reason the other kids...don't like our kid very much because they keep getting into fights for any number of reasons and we still don't do anything about it. The word you are looking for is spoiled brat. To me, that is very much what Israel has achieved in the world.
I have never completely understood why the US must relinquish any sense of US self interest when the word Israel is interjected into the conversation. The unswerving disregard for US interests consistently since the 1960's is clear and plain for anyone to see. To be perfectly frank Israel has been a bad ally of the United States it seems based on a read of history - pretty much always.
If there is any need to emphasize this please refer any appologists to the USS Liberty Memorial Fund.
For my money - and it is my money, the US foreign interests must either be served obediently by our client state (Israel) or we should find/work with other allies to achieve our goals.
Were the US to exersize merely our economic options, the Israeli situation could become distinctly uncomfortable.
Our repeated inability to do this hints at either a too strong an influence of the tail upon the dog, or simple cowardice on the part of US politicians.
It seems that the combination of the Palestinian gift of never missing an opportunity to miss an opportunity coupled with the morbidly curious US-Israeli relationship have enabled this situation far too long.
However before I am cast into the rhetorical pit as an anti-semite, it should be mentioned that the Israeli government itself is my complainant, not the Israeli people (there are segments thereof, that do pose a real political problem but that's not my point). It is the government which consistently fails to act in the greater long term interests of it's own people which has served Israeli needs so disasterously.
All this is really a pointless exersize as there is a demographic clock ticking. In a few years, Israeli Jews will be out-populated by the Arab peoples living inside Israel proper. This will spell the end of anything less than minority rule, with a nearly completed wall, and a disenfranchized majority in their midst, how else should we describe a situation otherwise known as Apartheid.
Perhaps it should be called segregation or perhaps decentralized systematic ethnic disenfranchisement any way it's done I suspect it is of cold comfort to many who survived the camps Germany , as it seems nobody ever thinks it's fascism when "they" do it.
Personally, I see no compelling reason why the US should have enabled a slow-motion ethinic cleansing of the "greater" Israeli area in the past and seeming unending ethnic disenfranchisement in the future.
From a foreign policy perspective, it seems clear that it is up to the US state department to remember that the basis of OUR democracy is "E Pluribus Unum" . Which is seldom concordant with the "Separate and Superior" basis of Israeli politics.
From another perspective,one is compelled to wonder, however after so much disregarded privation and disenfranchisement whether one is any longer holy.
It seems a tragedy and perhaps a trick or test set upon the good meaning Israeli people, perhaps by fate, or G_d or just plain old human stupidity, that a people who so clearly earned the sympathy of the world after WW II should choose to so poorly spend that capital in actions so remenicent of what earned them their sympathy.
Perhaps it is a test of the good people of Israel by G_d that arrogance and stupidity from which all else (in this regard) stems must be abandoned to be able to find peace. Nah...it couldn't be that simple.
Personally, I need look no further than our current president's actions in office to realize that....perhaps it is.
I think also, however that the Palestinians can be called to account for failure to address their own situation properly and work hard to enfranchise themselves somewhere else.
They were in a war 60 years ago, and for the most part, they lost. Restore your civilization call for a diaspora of your own.
But for the love of G_d stop blowing stuff up. You don't even help yourselves when stuff like that happens, If you really don't like it, ask the UN for passage to some other country , vote with your feet and get the heck out!
Setup financing to bring poorer Palestinians to a new land where you can build a future.
Find a sympathetic emirate or some other area and ask the the current landholder if you can setup a Palestinian province. Show the Israeli's up - be good neighbors, contribute to that society and they'll be glad to have you.
Reinforce your ethnic traditions and heritage.
If you want come to America, and settle down, please leave the blowing stuff up Jihadi whatnot at the door and come on down.
Heck we've got more Jewish folks here than Israel itself does, I don't see why we can't have more Palestinians than Palestine.
Consider it another way, It doesn't make any difference in the long run, if you consider the goal that Germany had - to be "free" the "Jewish problem", well Germany is now largely "free" of the "Jewish problem", and everyone knows what they did to get that way.
Many of the Israeli governmnents sentiments are clearly similar to be "free" of "Palestinian problem" and it seems something fondly to be desired from that perspective. I say give them what they want. Everyone will still remember how they got that way.
On a personal note, Bill, rhetorical statement aside, please try not to attack folks personally as this is a discussion worthy of not degenerating into a flame-fest.
President Carter is correct, call it whatever makes you feel most comfortable.
However, more importantly explain to me why I should care?
If the Israeli government feels so strongly that killing hundreds and destroy the infrastructure of neighboring countries in response to a couple of kidnappings is cool - fine. But get someone else to flip the tab for all that , the US doesn't need any more enemies right now.
Only two times in 60+ years has Israel be attacked and successfully able to defend itself at that. Almost universally thereafter the in-extremis case is involved.
In the US, we don't hear about Israeli attacks on Palestinians - I'm sure they must occur - I'm also sure that I've never heard of one, we do here about frequent Israeli army attacks. "A disenfranchised,____, from a family with ____ previous hardships in the family attributed to ____ actions, attacks Israeli interests, killing ____, maiming ___ and causing ___ amout of damage."
Pretty much sums up the most news items for Arab-Israeli relations for the last 70 years.
It seems to me the US often behaves like a parent who doesn't know how to discipline their children, always making apologies for Israel's bad behavior. Never setting any standards or rules of behavior, never denied a thing, always cleaning up after their messes. For some reason the other kids...don't like our kid very much because they keep getting into fights for any number of reasons and we still don't do anything about it. The word you are looking for is spoiled brat. To me, that is very much what Israel has achieved in the world.
I have never completely understood why the US must relinquish any sense of US self interest when the word Israel is interjected into the conversation. The unswerving disregard for US interests consistently since the 1960's is clear and plain for anyone to see. To be perfectly frank Israel has been a bad ally of the United States it seems based on a read of history - pretty much always.
If there is any need to emphasize this please refer any appologists to the USS Liberty Memorial Fund.
For my money - and it is my money, the US foreign interests must either be served obediently by our client state (Israel) or we should find/work with other allies to achieve our goals.
Were the US to exersize merely our economic options, the Israeli situation could become distinctly uncomfortable.
Our repeated inability to do this hints at either a too strong an influence of the tail upon the dog, or simple cowardice on the part of US politicians.
It seems that the combination of the Palestinian gift of never missing an opportunity to miss an opportunity coupled with the morbidly curious US-Israeli relationship have enabled this situation far too long.
However before I am cast into the rhetorical pit as an anti-semite, it should be mentioned that the Israeli government itself is my complainant, not the Israeli people (there are segments thereof, that do pose a real political problem but that's not my point). It is the government which consistently fails to act in the greater long term interests of it's own people which has served Israeli needs so disasterously.
All this is really a pointless exersize as there is a demographic clock ticking. In a few years, Israeli Jews will be out-populated by the Arab peoples living inside Israel proper. This will spell the end of anything less than minority rule, with a nearly completed wall, and a disenfranchized majority in their midst, how else should we describe a situation otherwise known as Apartheid.
Perhaps it should be called segregation or perhaps decentralized systematic ethnic disenfranchisement any way it's done I suspect it is of cold comfort to many who survived the camps Germany , as it seems nobody ever thinks it's fascism when "they" do it.
Personally, I see no compelling reason why the US should have enabled a slow-motion ethinic cleansing of the "greater" Israeli area in the past and seeming unending ethnic disenfranchisement in the future.
From a foreign policy perspective, it seems clear that it is up to the US state department to remember that the basis of OUR democracy is "E Pluribus Unum" . Which is seldom concordant with the "Separate and Superior" basis of Israeli politics.
From another perspective,one is compelled to wonder, however after so much disregarded privation and disenfranchisement whether one is any longer holy.
It seems a tragedy and perhaps a trick or test set upon the good meaning Israeli people, perhaps by fate, or G_d or just plain old human stupidity, that a people who so clearly earned the sympathy of the world after WW II should choose to so poorly spend that capital in actions so remenicent of what earned them their sympathy.
Perhaps it is a test of the good people of Israel by G_d that arrogance and stupidity from which all else (in this regard) stems must be abandoned to be able to find peace. Nah...it couldn't be that simple.
Personally, I need look no further than our current president's actions in office to realize that....perhaps it is.
I think also, however that the Palestinians can be called to account for failure to address their own situation properly and work hard to enfranchise themselves somewhere else.
They were in a war 60 years ago, and for the most part, they lost. Restore your civilization call for a diaspora of your own.
But for the love of G_d stop blowing stuff up. You don't even help yourselves when stuff like that happens, If you really don't like it, ask the UN for passage to some other country , vote with your feet and get the heck out!
Setup financing to bring poorer Palestinians to a new land where you can build a future.
Find a sympathetic emirate or some other area and ask the the current landholder if you can setup a Palestinian province. Show the Israeli's up - be good neighbors, contribute to that society and they'll be glad to have you.
Reinforce your ethnic traditions and heritage.
If you want come to America, and settle down, please leave the blowing stuff up Jihadi whatnot at the door and come on down.
Heck we've got more Jewish folks here than Israel itself does, I don't see why we can't have more Palestinians than Palestine.
Consider it another way, It doesn't make any difference in the long run, if you consider the goal that Germany had - to be "free" the "Jewish problem", well Germany is now largely "free" of the "Jewish problem", and everyone knows what they did to get that way.
Many of the Israeli governmnents sentiments are clearly similar to be "free" of "Palestinian problem" and it seems something fondly to be desired from that perspective. I say give them what they want. Everyone will still remember how they got that way.
On a personal note, Bill, rhetorical statement aside, please try not to attack folks personally as this is a discussion worthy of not degenerating into a flame-fest.